Contest 2007 Smalltalk

  • [quote]Originally posted by Starstruck
    I finished 1300 by evicting about 8000 poor from my Hanse ... has rather a negative effect on industry :D.


    I'm very curious. How did you do this and why did you do it. ?(?

  • @ MotC


    The only reason is to improve the social structure.


    The way is the pulling-down of a lot of half-timbered houses at the end of the year. This procedure starstruck also use at the end of 1301. Otherwise his highscore-results in the social structure are permanent impossible. :klug:


    You can see it in the development of the poor people over the year in every town.


    I hope my english was intelligible. :)

  • Wasa, Thanks for the info. Your english is fine.


    Let me see if I got this right, You destroy the HTH's to decrease the number of poor, which affects the calculation of the points. I'll have to review the way the points are calculated to understand it.


    I have been impressed with your game play. :170:I think the choices you made for growth have been outstanding. I don't know how you did it, but I've been studying your 1300 save. Since this is only the second game I've ever played, I can see many mistakes I've made in growing my Hanse.


    In my game, I am about 1 month behind where I'd like to be, which is going to affect Dec 31 1300 greatly. My biggest mistake was the lack of cash build-up in the beginning. ;( It caused me to shift my strategy in Oct to raise funds so I could move in Nov to get the LM in Gotenborg. I ended up losing 20 or so days in my plan and the supply convoys are now (Nov 25th) just getting the towns fully supplied. I might have to take a hit in the 1300 score. I am trying to figure out how to get the best score for Dec. 1300. ?( I can see many celebrations happening shortly. :giggle: Any advice is most appreciated.

  • Man of the C:


    Hold on to your scarce goods. Celebrations are more a reputation builder than a satisfaction booster.


    Having access to large amounts of cash early on is really important in this game.It allowed me to build the infrastructure and grant lots of loans. The impounding from defaulted loans makes up for lacking production facilities of fish, grain, timber and others plus boosts your fleet size considerably as of January 1301.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • @ Man of the C


    Just to avoid a misunderstanding: This isn't my strategy, it's starstruck's strategy. I only want to answer your question.


    If you look at my save, you will see a constant development in my social structure. If you look at starstruck's save, you can see at the end of the year a great decrease of the poor.
    My important target for the contest 2007 is to achieve a constant high happiness all over the time and not to achieve the highest shortterm social structure at the end of every year.


    Just for fun, I have taken my save from 30.Nov.1300 and played the strategy of starstruck. The result were 14,9 % rich and 28,2 % wealthy at the end of 1300. To find out this trick is the merit of starstruck. Everyone had to decide to use for. Actual I try it without it.

  • Exactly (as per Wasa's answer).


    The only date that matters for the contest is Dec 31, so I thought the best way to get a good structure valuation is to have a high number of poor to make it easier to attract rich/wealthy, and then lower the number of poor as well as possible for the new year.


    Kicking people out of jobs seems to evict rich and wealthy as well as the poor, so the only method I found to lower the number of poor alone is to destroy the half timber houses. I can't drop poor populations below about 1500 (or 1800 in London/Oslo) though since, as far as I know, there is no way to remove town-owned housing.


    The downside is that there is obviously a big impact on the Hanse economy as a substantial fraction of the population leaves. Recovering from that after the 1300 evaluation didn't take too long; doing so after the 1301 evaluation is taking quite a bit longer. I expect doing so after 1302 will take longer still.


    Wasa, with english that good (and excellent gameplay) :170:, why haven't we heard more from you here! :hammer:

  • @ Starstruck


    Why haven't you heard more from me ?


    You were amused, if you could see me leafing and searching in my dictionary to understand and translate your treats. :O For me the sacrifice of time is very high to follow your discussion in english. If you want to discus with me detailed, it is better for me to discus in the german part of the forum.

  • Zitat

    Originally posted by Wasa
    For me the sacrifice of time is very high to follow your discussion in english. If you want to discus with me detailed, it is better for me to discus in the german part of the forum.


    Why don't you post here in German and I add the translation?

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • @ Man of the C, bizpro


    I wonna answer your question in german:


    Ich habe gar nicht so viele richtige Entscheidungen hinsichtlich des Wachstums getroffen. Wenn ich noch mal neu starten würde, bin ich sicher, bedeutend bessere Werte zu erhalten. Ich würde folgendermaßen vorgehen:
    Bau von Brunnen, aber kein Straßenbau ( siehe save von starstruck ), stattdessen stärkerer Aufbau von Betrieben der Baumaterialherstellung.
    Möglichst schnell Arbitrage, damit Geldzufluß ok.
    Mein großer Vorteil war die schnelle Ausrottung der weißen KI, damit ich möglichst schnell die effiziente Verteilung der Mangelwaren selbst organisieren konnte.
    Zum frühest möglichen Zeitpunkt MM-Importe.
    Und nun das allerwichtigste: Wenn die Zufriedenheitswerte der Reichen und Wohlh. so hoch sind, dass die Anzahl dieser Gruppen steigt, rechtzeitig für den Nachbau von Kaufmanns- u. Giebelhäusern sorgen.
    Wenn man diese Kriterien von Anfang an beachtet, müßte man klar bessere Werte als meine Ende 1300 erreichen.
    Abschließend: Für 1301 ist es sehr wichtig die Stadtmauern von Bergen, Brügge und/oder London frühzeitig auszubauen, da dort zuerst Engpässe beim Bauplatz für Wohnhäuser entstehen.


    Gruss Wasa ;)


    EDIT by bizpro
    I did not make many correct decisions in regard to growth. I am sure that, if I were to restart, I would obtain substantially better values. I would proceed as follows:

    • Build wells but not roads (see Starstruck's save) and instead increased expansion of the building material industry.
    • Commence arbitrage as soon as possible to ensure that cash flow is adequate.
    • My biggest advantage was the quick elimination of the white fleet in order to take over an efficient distribution/supply system.
    • Start import from the Med as soon as possible.
    • Most important: If the satisfaction level of rich and wealthy creates a continuous influx ensure timely completion of new houses for them.

    Paying attention to these criteria should ensure values that are better than mine at the end of 1300.
    Finally: Expanding the walls of Bergen, Bruges and/or London are important task for 1301 since those towns are the first to lack building lots.
    [sic] I started wall expanasion in London, Bremen, and Oslo in 1300 ;). By Nov 1301 the second walls in Hamburg, Bruege, Stettin, Ladoga and Bergen were either completed or placed and Danzig had its 2nd wall 50% placed.

  • WASA,
    Thanks. This is very helpful.
    I'll have to check into the roads building issue. I have been building them right along. They do seem to impact the building queue.
    I have 63 brickworks going right now. I thought building materials would be important in this game.


    I have been building HTH's to supply the housing for workers without waiting on the AI to build them. I am using the beer trick.


    I am weak at setting up and managing arbitrage. :(


    I do not have enough experience yet to take out the white fleet. Before this game, I had never attacked more than 1 ship at a time. :giggle:


    I did start the med and see the importance of it. I did not plan on the amount of cash I would need to make it work.


    I may have to go back and replay a bit. :giggle:


    That's a great tip on the wall building. I have struggled for hours trying to figure out how to correctly place houses. I actually took your game save, redirected the Memel ships to each port and saved, and then use those to experiment on where to place the buildings and houses.
    Guess you didn't know you were helping me that way!


    Thanks for the wisdom. :170:


    Bizpro,
    Many thanks for translating and all you do here on the forum. :170:

  • Zitat

    Originally posted by Man of the C
    I am weak at setting up and managing arbitrage. :(


    Stick to MK I or MK II (for dummies like me, who can't make MK Vii work) :D


    Zitat

    I do not have enough experience yet to take out the white fleet. Before this game, I had never attacked more than 1 ship at a time. :giggle:


    PMP - practice makes perfect. Just remember, making safes before the attack and just before boarding, as well as after exiting the battle map, is important, unless you want to bribe the guys in the bathhouse.


    Zitat

    I may have to go back and replay a bit. :giggle:


    You and me, both.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • @ Man of the C


    And that's, though I have removed all my wisdomteeth :giggle:


    I hope my reflection can help you.


    And now in german: @ bizpro


    Danke erst einmal an bizpro für die Übersetzung. :170: Aber ich kann mir nicht verkneifen an dieser Stelle eine kleine Spitze in Richtung bizpro zu schießen ( ich bitte gleichzeitig um Verzeihung ) ;): Anfang Januar haben wir beide uns im deutschsprachigen Teil des Forums über Sinn und Zweck der Teilnahme am Contest 2007 ausgetauscht. Dabei ging es nicht nur um das Ergebnis, sondern auch um den Spaß am Spiel. Ich hoffe, ich habe Dir bizpro hiermit bewiesen, dass es mir zwar natürlich auch um das Ergebnis geht, aber ich auch jederzeit bereit bin, meine Ergebnisse anderen mitzuteilen, auch wenn dies zur Folge hat, dass sich mein Ergebnis relativiert.


    Andererseits profitieren wir alle von den Ergebnissen der Anderen: Hätte ich mir nicht das Save von starstruck von 1300 :170: gezogen, wäre ich nicht auf die Idee mit dem Abreißen zum Ende des Jahres gekommen. Ich gebe zu, dass ich bezüglich meines Saves für 1301 überlege, ob ich von diesem Trick Gebrauch mache und versuche starstruck's fantasische Entwicklung ( laut seiner Zwischenstände 1301 ) Paroli zu bieten. :fenc:


    Für jedes weitere Spiel - egal welche Zielsetzung - sind die Ausführungen von Starstruck bezüglich der Armenspeisung für mich von unschätzbaren Wert. Wenn ich jetzt noch berücksichtige, dass es laut seiner Aussage erst sein 2. Spiel ist, finde ich diese Leistung unglaublich.


    Wenn ich daran denke, wieviel Zeit ich für diesen Beitrag in Englisch gebraucht hätte, ist das Angebot von bizpro für mich eine riesen Erleichterung. :ola:


    Edit by bizpro
    spielspass und anderen helfen sind zwei paar schuhe.
    wenn mir was nicht spass mach dann tu ich es nicht, egal was fuer folgen das in meiner wertung hat. ;)


    That takes care of most of the 1st paragraph :giggle:


    We all profit from achievements of others. Had I not downloaded the 1300 save from Starstruck I would never have come up with the demolition of houses for the poor. I admit that I am contemplating to use this trick for the end of 1301 to match Starstruck's phenomenal results as per his post in "Progress Report 1301".
    For any future game, regardless of the goal, Starstruck's description of how to use feeding of the poor will be invaluable. If I consider that this is Starstruck's 2nd game I find his achievments beyond belief [I wonder what he is teaching :170: - Economics or Stats? sic]

  • I think Wasa's spot on with his comments for a rerun, although I'd also add in capturing as many escort/patrol pirates as possible. But as games go, he's made better decisions than anyone so far. My submitted save was my second attempt at 1300; the first I gave up on in about October/November in a much worse state.


    I know that I could definitely have improved my 1300 results by building more merchant houses early on, and no mints. I had a lot of towns sitting at 240 rich, instead of growing, due to lack of housing. I had never taken white cogs before, so I also didn't start doing that until December 1300; only took about 8-10 snaikkas early on. I always thought that taking on a convoy meant you were certain to be caught unless you got every ship ... not until I missed some ships without getting caught did I realise otherwise.


    But definitely, arbitrage early is vital, and imports from the med. Beer, grain, timber and fish are easy enough to produce in excess; adding in pottery, wine and cloth from the med and selling everything cheaply is enough to make everyone pretty happy. Fund with arbitrage :]. Get merchant houses built early, and everyone should be happy enough to have ~>400 rich per town by the end of 1300. The beer trick is useful early, but you want to stop it early too, because while you're keeping your poor unhappy you won't be growing any rich populations. I ran it a bit later than I should have; it sounds like Man of the C has also.


    This is my seventh game I think - the first four being on the standard map from Leubeck or Danzig and lasting about one, five, six and ten months (the last, I stopped when I made aldermann). They were all played without/minimal arbitrage or piracy and with me trying to turn a positive account balance. Then I decided to give the contest a go, and seeing the map posted I downloaded it and played about 5 or 6 months before coming back here and realising the contest had to be played from the John Le Blund save, not just on the map :O. I played out of Bremen, which was a bit different, and played around with arbitrage, piracy and pillaging a bit. In total I'd probably played just under 2 1/2 years before my current contest game, and had done most things except building new towns, expanding walls, capturing white cogs and the like.

  • If you excuse the pun, did this contest then broaden your horizon? :giggle:
    We were discussing, I believe it was last year, if P II/III was "dead in the water" since most exploits and tricks had been discovered. Well, as this contest proves, thanks in part to your contributions, there are still angles left that are, at least for the majority, new territory.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 Mal editiert, zuletzt von bizpro ()

  • Interesting thoughts on the German side relating to the progress of New World. I couldn't understand it in fine details but I think the demolishon of houses has a few people amused. :giggle:I am wondering if it will be a strategy that can be maintianed into 1303 and beyond.


    I did gather that some people demolished AI built hth houses in earlier months to impact the growth of wealthy and rich. If you need people to work in your industry, how does this work? Can someone explain that to me? ?(

  • I believe it will be increasingly difficult to get your Hanse back into shape. If you want to do a demolition derby, you have to artifically boost your population first, i.e. through feeding the beggars. Then you evict all the poor by demolishing their houses. In January you have to re-build and attract them back to town. You will be hit with a drop in satisfaction and a loss of output. Consequently it is really only workable if you have excess production.


    In regard to the comments, some don't like it. But, since it is a trick that is inherent in the game it is permissable. However, that does not meant that everyone will, or can, employ it. Furthermore, it takes the ground work (surplus production) to be able to pull it off. Just compare the number of businesses from Starstruck to the rest of the field.

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new
    Wer niemals einen Fehler gemacht hat, hat noch nie etwas neues probiert Albert Einstein

  • That's all definitely true.


    An apology if any of this sounds angry/annoyed, some of the comments elsewhere have been less than favourable. My logic at the start of the contest was fairly simple; I didn't realise it wasn't mirrored (or approved of) on the German side. Translation may have some part here, or else people just not thinking through the contest rules.


    It was never stated explicity by me here for multiple reasons, including that (a) I assumed it would be evident to others, or at least, some others, and (b) that I am very new here, and was not about to go posting in depth strategy guides to people who have been playing a game more than ten times as long as I have.


    For December 31 you want the best valuation you can.
    To get this, you are going to have some number of rich R (more is good!), wealthy W (more is good unless R > P), and poor P (bad!). At some point you are going to want to limit the number of poor in your Hanse to better your score. Everybody will do this, even if only by accident. You can do this by having full HTHs limiting immigration via housing, or having full businesses limiting immigration via jobs. You can do it constantly, or just as a year-end adjustment for the assessment date.


    In all games I've ever played, if you have a set battle-time/score-date/assessment-date etc., you aim to optimise your army/score/character etc. for that time, and don't care about values at other times. When I played Settlers that time was the end of "peace time"; when I played I.C. or Atlantis that was the expiry date of whichever non-aggression pact you had with your relevant neighbour (except playing Patrick, for which it tended to be every day! X( ); for Diablo online it's the character level which you call "endgame", and for Patrician contest 2007 it is December 31.


    Let's say you end up with R rich and P poor by restricting poor immigration through cutting out HTHs (preferable to restricting jobs in an expanding Hanse, although not necessarily in a steady-state Hanse). By not restricting poor immigration, I'll most probably have R rich and P+Z poor. The extra poor allow me to have extra spare production (poor people only eat about 50% of what they produce, compared to about 200% for rich) so having more poor during the game means I'll have more goods in my stockpiles. I then have the option of kicking out Z poor, in which case I'll have the same score as if I restricted immigration as well as identical production / population. Alternatively, I can kick out less, in which case I'll have a worse score but better production, or I can kick out more poor for a better score and worse production (an option that is also available to the restricted player).


    In other words, if you choose to evict at the end, you should have bigger goods stockpiles, and more flexibility about how you choose to balance your score-economic state for Dec 31, than if you restrict poor all the way through the year. Provided that getting more poor doesn't come at the expense of getting rich/wealthy. Roughly, your economic state is just dependent on population, as long as you get your industry balance right - which is where most of my planning time has gone.


    And, roughly, your final score depends only on how many rich and wealthy you can get into your Hanse. More rich means better options for your score, period. Come December, you get to make a choice between increasing your score (evicting poor) or keeping a strong economy - and whatever strategy you use before then, you have that choice at the end. Adding more poor in just gives slightly greater flexibility of options, although probably the low-score options that you're not going to take until later years. My gameplay has never been designed around aiming to destroy every HTH in sight, even if I've effectively done that for 1300/01 (as have many others, although mostly mid year). It's been around maximising rich numbers, and maximising the flexibility / options available at assessment time.


    That was my logic as of game-time May 1300 on my first run through, and it's only changed very barely since then.


    There has been talk on the German side about my game involving cheating - or at least that's the best translation I can get. I think that's perfectly valid, my games are massively exploting infinite-money cheats (captains buying essentially unlimited goods and selling them risk free for higher prices), resource-free building (for hemp, at least), various building cheats to reduce the AIs road building beyond what the programmers intended, and unscrupulous destruction of my competitor's businesses in dishonest ways (clicking on that destruct button for buildings I don't own).
    In these circumstances, it takes a very peculiar frame of mind to say that destroying buildings I own myself, in a manner intended to be allowed by the game designers (albeit for purposes they may not have considered), is not acceptable.


    But perhaps it's all a matter of when the ideas entered the public consciousness.


    I rest by my statement above that the principle matter in this contest is maximising the number of rich in your Hanse - the number of poor during the year is pretty much irrelevent. Forget the contest %s; my stats stand pretty well in terms of having more rich/wealthy than anyone else, Wasa & yet-to-submit people like BT possibly excluded.

  • Starstruck, Thanks for the post. This is only the 3rd computer game I've ever played and I have really enjoyed learning about the strategy of the gameplay. Kudos on how you have adapted your strategy based on the goals of the game. I remeber reading a post or two while I was reasearching whether to buy the game or not that said there was not much more to learn about this game. Man, were they out to lunch. I'm a slow learner, but I'm learning! Thanks. :170: